Comments - Quality of Experience - P2P Foundation2024-03-29T14:47:50Zhttps://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profiles/comment/feed?attachedTo=2003008%3ABlogPost%3A4357&xn_auth=noMichel - You had mentioned wh…tag:p2pfoundation.ning.com,2008-05-20:2003008:Comment:49632008-05-20T09:35:47.000ZJohn Hamminkhttps://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profile/JohnHammink
Michel - You had mentioned why not putting this on the regular P2P foundation blog. I tried to do this but did not have the login, etc. credentials. Please let me know. Thanks!
Michel - You had mentioned why not putting this on the regular P2P foundation blog. I tried to do this but did not have the login, etc. credentials. Please let me know. Thanks! Thanks for your gracious reac…tag:p2pfoundation.ning.com,2008-05-20:2003008:Comment:49612008-05-20T05:48:02.000ZMichel Bauwenshttps://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profile/MichelBauwens
Thanks for your gracious reaction Patrick, sorry to have put you on the spot, the same could have happened to me. John, thanks for having posted this and started the discussion. I'm not sure what you are referring to with deets ... I'm back myself after nearly 3 full months, and need to be back into the thick of things myself. Generally speaking all stimulating thought capsules are welcome!!
Thanks for your gracious reaction Patrick, sorry to have put you on the spot, the same could have happened to me. John, thanks for having posted this and started the discussion. I'm not sure what you are referring to with deets ... I'm back myself after nearly 3 full months, and need to be back into the thick of things myself. Generally speaking all stimulating thought capsules are welcome!! A bit of Drift:
I think that…tag:p2pfoundation.ning.com,2008-05-19:2003008:Comment:49512008-05-19T23:40:18.000ZSamRosehttps://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profile/SamRose
A bit of Drift:<br />
<br />
I think that natural selection ("nature") itself will end up negating human-created "patents" on nature. Because, a genetic system is more than just "genes". It is "gene/organism/environment". Patents really cannot cover "things" that can dynamically change themselves over time, depending on their environment, and other factors. Patents can only work for statically-defined "things", human creations that will largely stay a certain way over time.<br />
<br />
The same could be said for…
A bit of Drift:<br />
<br />
I think that natural selection ("nature") itself will end up negating human-created "patents" on nature. Because, a genetic system is more than just "genes". It is "gene/organism/environment". Patents really cannot cover "things" that can dynamically change themselves over time, depending on their environment, and other factors. Patents can only work for statically-defined "things", human creations that will largely stay a certain way over time.<br />
<br />
The same could be said for "patents" on evolutionary technology that is not derived from biological "nature". Anything that is a true complex adaptive system will negate patents placed upon it over time. Thus, there can only be one patent for them: a single universal patent for all complex adaptive systems, for anything that displays the ability to adapt dynamically over time to it's environment, and to change it's own "design". Who would own such a patent? Regarding the Train network c…tag:p2pfoundation.ning.com,2008-05-19:2003008:Comment:49492008-05-19T23:05:36.000ZJohn Hamminkhttps://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profile/JohnHammink
Regarding the Train network comments - I agree that it would be harder to collectively own something like this. However - most rail systems are subsidized by governments - so people have the opportunity, in numbers - to vote with their wallets as far as which national/regional rail systems they might support (think tax competition in the EU - incorporating in a different country etc.)<br />
<br />
Also there may be possibility for commuters at large to insist that there be more than one competing service…
Regarding the Train network comments - I agree that it would be harder to collectively own something like this. However - most rail systems are subsidized by governments - so people have the opportunity, in numbers - to vote with their wallets as far as which national/regional rail systems they might support (think tax competition in the EU - incorporating in a different country etc.)<br />
<br />
Also there may be possibility for commuters at large to insist that there be more than one competing service on a given rail network. This enables free market competition (which carrier is running for best times, most destinations, sells you the seat with the ticket, etc). We certainly already see this with things such as airlines - where the airports themselves are the supporting infrastructure. And we already have regional carriers vs. local carriers on the train network - with some overlap, thus competition for the same space.<br />
<br />
Also, even if trains themselves were difficult to introduce competition; we still have service organisations (ticket staff, conductors, route schedulers, etc)., who could compete - thus hopefully bringing the level of THOSE services to a more acceptable level.<br />
<br />
I hope my rambling above makes some kind of sense :) I wanted to personally apolog…tag:p2pfoundation.ning.com,2008-05-19:2003008:Comment:49472008-05-19T22:55:22.000ZJohn Hamminkhttps://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profile/JohnHammink
I wanted to personally apologize for not responding more - I've been on the road for the last two weeks. I'm really excited to see the examples that people are coming up with here. Michel - I should be grateful if you'd come back to me on email with deets I'd need to post this to main P2P forum, as you mentioned. Thanks.
I wanted to personally apologize for not responding more - I've been on the road for the last two weeks. I'm really excited to see the examples that people are coming up with here. Michel - I should be grateful if you'd come back to me on email with deets I'd need to post this to main P2P forum, as you mentioned. Thanks. I see what you mean, and I ag…tag:p2pfoundation.ning.com,2008-05-19:2003008:Comment:49452008-05-19T22:45:27.000ZAGNUciushttps://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profile/AGNUcius
I see what you mean, and I agree it is distracting and unprofessional.<br />
<br />
I'll try to not post during such emotion, but delay until I can cool off.<br />
<br />
Thanks for trying to not be a heavy-handed censor and for explaining.
I see what you mean, and I agree it is distracting and unprofessional.<br />
<br />
I'll try to not post during such emotion, but delay until I can cool off.<br />
<br />
Thanks for trying to not be a heavy-handed censor and for explaining. I'm not sure if I should say…tag:p2pfoundation.ning.com,2008-05-19:2003008:Comment:49432008-05-19T22:25:04.000ZMichel Bauwenshttps://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profile/MichelBauwens
I'm not sure if I should say this or not, but here I go, while I understand entirely your feelings and opinions on this issue, I think we should still try to maintain some kind of discourse that does not use such heavy laden words as parasites, brutish etc... This occasion may justify it, but other people may then start doing that as well, and before you know it, the whole atmosphere of our communication changes ... So I would say, say what you want, but let's try to say it a little differently…
I'm not sure if I should say this or not, but here I go, while I understand entirely your feelings and opinions on this issue, I think we should still try to maintain some kind of discourse that does not use such heavy laden words as parasites, brutish etc... This occasion may justify it, but other people may then start doing that as well, and before you know it, the whole atmosphere of our communication changes ... So I would say, say what you want, but let's try to say it a little differently ... HB311 makes me so angry I am…tag:p2pfoundation.ning.com,2008-05-18:2003008:Comment:48852008-05-18T22:27:38.000ZAGNUciushttps://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profile/AGNUcius
HB311 makes me so angry I am seething.<br />
<br />
Why are the lowly "we" allowed to own any capital whatsoever?<br />
<br />
Why don't the feudalists disallow apple trees? How can they possibly let us raise vegetables? Why are chickens not long since ill-eagle?<br />
<br />
These pigish, putrid, immoral, usurist parasites will only tighten their grip as long as we continue to fund ConAgra, Monsanto, Nestle, etc. when we buy their products and pay the profit that they then use to purchase yet more legislation to subjugate we the…
HB311 makes me so angry I am seething.<br />
<br />
Why are the lowly "we" allowed to own any capital whatsoever?<br />
<br />
Why don't the feudalists disallow apple trees? How can they possibly let us raise vegetables? Why are chickens not long since ill-eagle?<br />
<br />
These pigish, putrid, immoral, usurist parasites will only tighten their grip as long as we continue to fund ConAgra, Monsanto, Nestle, etc. when we buy their products and pay the profit that they then use to purchase yet more legislation to subjugate we the consuming and working people.<br />
<br />
Consumers are workers and workers are consumers. We are being taken advantage of, and boxes are being built around us with the intention of making us more literal slaves.<br />
<br />
Here is a film showing Monsanto's attempt to patent DNA sequences that appear naturally. Notice in the last clip the farmer talking about GMO corn causing his cattle to become sterile. Sterility will increase the profit of those that caused it by enabling them to sell newborns each year. This is along the same lines as Monsanto's terminator technology and some of the other tampering with wheat and rice genetics for the purpose of increasing profit through dependence.<br />
<br />
Patently Piggish:<br />
<a href="http://YouTube.com/watch?v=4-ouf_gmA5o">http://YouTube.com/watch?v=4-ouf_gmA5o</a><br />
<a href="http://YouTube.com/watch?v=MtkKLcpxTWc">http://YouTube.com/watch?v=MtkKLcpxTWc</a><br />
<a href="http://YouTube.com/watch?v=TZBWVJZ9YWM">http://YouTube.com/watch?v=TZBWVJZ9YWM</a><br />
<a href="http://YouTube.com/watch?v=1WNMWcj_-4U">http://YouTube.com/watch?v=1WNMWcj_-4U</a><br />
<a href="http://YouTube.com/watch?v=iJg6TlC1kNo">http://YouTube.com/watch?v=iJg6TlC1kNo</a> This is fantastic. When the c…tag:p2pfoundation.ning.com,2008-05-18:2003008:Comment:48812008-05-18T21:59:29.000ZAGNUciushttps://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profile/AGNUcius
This is fantastic. When the consumers are the literal owners of the sources of production (cows), then they are the owners of the outputs (milk) even before it is produced, so there is no 'sale' because the product is already the property of the person who will consume it.<br />
<br />
I've wondered if we could use this same tactic to avoid the Codex Alimentarius and that new Canadian legislation that makes many healthy things illegal.<br />
<br />
Unfortunately the "they" are already ahead of us here in Utah and have…
This is fantastic. When the consumers are the literal owners of the sources of production (cows), then they are the owners of the outputs (milk) even before it is produced, so there is no 'sale' because the product is already the property of the person who will consume it.<br />
<br />
I've wondered if we could use this same tactic to avoid the Codex Alimentarius and that new Canadian legislation that makes many healthy things illegal.<br />
<br />
Unfortunately the "they" are already ahead of us here in Utah and have explicitly made cow sharing illegal.<br />
<br />
<a href="http://le.utah.gov/~2007/bills/hbillint/hb0311.htm">http://le.utah.gov/~2007/bills/hbillint/hb0311.htm</a> reads in part:<br />
<br />
<i><br />
prohibits cow-share programs<br />
...<br />
"Cow-share program" means a program in which a person acquires undivided interest in a milk producing hoofed mammal through an agreement with a producer that includes:<br />
(a) a bill of sale for an interest in the mammal;<br />
(b) a boarding arrangement under which the person boards the mammal with the<br />
producer for the care and milking of the mammal; and<br />
(c) an arrangement under which the person receives raw milk for personal consumption.<br />
</i><br />
<br />
See also <a href="http://senatesite.com/blog/2007/02/raw-milk-regulations.html">http://senatesite.com/blog/2007/02/raw-milk-regulations.html</a><br />
<br />
Terrorists (usurists) hate freedom because it is bad for their market.<br />
<br />
I wonder if it is illegal for me to own an entire cow for myself. If I cannot share the output - not even with my children, and cannot divide a cow into shares, then I would need an individual cow for each child - but that is just far too much milk. Usurists hate sharing.<br />
<br />
Can anyone in the universe explain the reasoning for this restriction beyond the obvious benefit to the dairy board in keeping us <b>dependent</b> upon them?<br />
<br />
Owner profit requires consumer dependence. Perpetuated profit is usury. Talking about gallons of milk…tag:p2pfoundation.ning.com,2008-05-18:2003008:Comment:48632008-05-18T18:31:23.000ZSepp Hasslbergerhttps://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profile/Sepp
Talking about gallons of milk ...<br />
<br />
there is a Canadian farmer with thirty cows who sells raw milk. He's in trouble because the Canadian health authorities do not want to hear about people drinking milk without it having been pasteurized.<br />
<br />
The interesting thing is that he's having a "cow-share" program that approaches your idea of a consumer owned farming operation.<br />
<br />
<i>The people who line up for milk say they are not doing anything illegal. All of them participate in Schmidt's cow-share program…</i>
Talking about gallons of milk ...<br />
<br />
there is a Canadian farmer with thirty cows who sells raw milk. He's in trouble because the Canadian health authorities do not want to hear about people drinking milk without it having been pasteurized.<br />
<br />
The interesting thing is that he's having a "cow-share" program that approaches your idea of a consumer owned farming operation.<br />
<br />
<i>The people who line up for milk say they are not doing anything illegal. All of them participate in Schmidt's cow-share program and have paid $300 to buy a bit of one of his cows. The money they hand over for a jar of milk – it costs $3 a litre – is simply the cost of boarding the cow at Glencolton Farms.</i><br />
<br />
Check it out here:<br />
<br />
<a href="http://healthzone.ca/health/article/426851">Raw versus the law</a>