What kind of open money do we need? - P2P Foundation2024-03-29T02:08:45Zhttp://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topics/2003008:Topic:5821?commentId=2003008%3AComment%3A5919&feed=yes&xn_auth=noI'd be interested to hear wha…tag:p2pfoundation.ning.com,2008-08-27:2003008:Comment:62372008-08-27T00:09:09.000ZJosef Davies-Coateshttp://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profile/JosefDaviesCoates
I'd be interested to hear what you think isn't open about <a href="http://opencoin.org">http://opencoin.org</a> ?
I'd be interested to hear what you think isn't open about <a href="http://opencoin.org">http://opencoin.org</a> ? Look forward to listening to…tag:p2pfoundation.ning.com,2008-08-14:2003008:Comment:60592008-08-14T11:50:42.000ZJosef Davies-Coateshttp://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profile/JosefDaviesCoates
Look forward to listening to this show :)
Look forward to listening to this show :) allright, today 10 pmtag:p2pfoundation.ning.com,2008-08-12:2003008:Comment:60132008-08-12T07:16:18.000ZMichel Bauwenshttp://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profile/MichelBauwens
allright, today 10 pm
allright, today 10 pm Then let's say Tuesday mornin…tag:p2pfoundation.ning.com,2008-08-10:2003008:Comment:59972008-08-10T17:39:52.000ZMichael Lintonhttp://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profile/MichaelLinton
Then let's say Tuesday morning 8 am here, Tuesday evening 10 pm there - for about an hour? I can move an hour up or down if it's better for you. Earlier than that I'm totally incoherent, and later you could be similarly compromised.
Then let's say Tuesday morning 8 am here, Tuesday evening 10 pm there - for about an hour? I can move an hour up or down if it's better for you. Earlier than that I'm totally incoherent, and later you could be similarly compromised. tuesday is fine, morning or e…tag:p2pfoundation.ning.com,2008-08-10:2003008:Comment:59952008-08-10T06:44:52.000ZMichel Bauwenshttp://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profile/MichelBauwens
tuesday is fine, morning or evening, bkk time (gmt plus seven)<br />
<br />
Michel
tuesday is fine, morning or evening, bkk time (gmt plus seven)<br />
<br />
Michel Almost any day this week is p…tag:p2pfoundation.ning.com,2008-08-10:2003008:Comment:59932008-08-10T04:03:24.000ZMichael Lintonhttp://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profile/MichaelLinton
Almost any day this week is possible, perhaps Tuesday?
Almost any day this week is possible, perhaps Tuesday? Hi Michael,
do you have a co…tag:p2pfoundation.ning.com,2008-08-09:2003008:Comment:59882008-08-09T06:49:51.000ZMichel Bauwenshttp://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profile/MichelBauwens
Hi Michael,<br />
<br />
do you have a concrete date for that talk?<br />
<br />
I have no concrete answer to money transformation integration, but I think it is healthy to look continuously for possible congruent approaches that mutually strengthen and learn from each other,<br />
<br />
look for common ground, ignore the differences in the cooperation, and continue working on your own for the differences ...<br />
<br />
Michel
Hi Michael,<br />
<br />
do you have a concrete date for that talk?<br />
<br />
I have no concrete answer to money transformation integration, but I think it is healthy to look continuously for possible congruent approaches that mutually strengthen and learn from each other,<br />
<br />
look for common ground, ignore the differences in the cooperation, and continue working on your own for the differences ...<br />
<br />
Michel Michel,
Alignment, trust, su…tag:p2pfoundation.ning.com,2008-08-08:2003008:Comment:59782008-08-08T21:44:41.000ZMichael Lintonhttp://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profile/MichaelLinton
Michel,<br />
<br />
Alignment, trust, subjective / objective, intergration, tinkering ....lots to talk about.<br />
<br />
Voluntary self-aggregation & common value creation is good, but I have generally found the mechanism more likely to be effective than logic.<br />
<br />
And I wonder what sort of alignment you see between Bernard's work and open money? Certainly there's no contradiction - there's room for all of both - but what synergies are you thinking of?<br />
<br />
I look forward to discussing all these points with you - and…
Michel,<br />
<br />
Alignment, trust, subjective / objective, intergration, tinkering ....lots to talk about.<br />
<br />
Voluntary self-aggregation & common value creation is good, but I have generally found the mechanism more likely to be effective than logic.<br />
<br />
And I wonder what sort of alignment you see between Bernard's work and open money? Certainly there's no contradiction - there's room for all of both - but what synergies are you thinking of?<br />
<br />
I look forward to discussing all these points with you - and no doubt other points - soon. Next week on the blogtalkradio channel? If it was early enough here - 8 am? - for it to be not too late there - 10 pm? - then we won't be competing live with the Olympics. Hi Michael,
Just to clarify,…tag:p2pfoundation.ning.com,2008-08-08:2003008:Comment:59752008-08-08T08:59:17.000ZMichel Bauwenshttp://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profile/MichelBauwens
Hi Michael,<br />
<br />
Just to clarify, I was not talking about trust 'in' money, but on money based 'on' trust, which is an entirely different thing. It means it is not based on any objective backing, but on the subjective relationships within the community.<br />
<br />
Also, between what you understand as alignement, which seems somewhat coercive, and the 'live and let live' that you suggest, there is an alternative, which is an integration of various movements that understand that they are in fact striving for…
Hi Michael,<br />
<br />
Just to clarify, I was not talking about trust 'in' money, but on money based 'on' trust, which is an entirely different thing. It means it is not based on any objective backing, but on the subjective relationships within the community.<br />
<br />
Also, between what you understand as alignement, which seems somewhat coercive, and the 'live and let live' that you suggest, there is an alternative, which is an integration of various movements that understand that they are in fact striving for similar goals.<br />
<br />
It is my conviction that the world needs such an integrative approach, a systemic change, rather than a tinkering with any particular aspect, be it money or something else.<br />
<br />
My understanding is that creating the possibilities for the spread of the opportunities for voluntary self-aggregation in the pursuit of common value creation, is the underlying logic of the type of social change that we need. This needs both a transformation on the macro-scale of existing globalized currencies, and the freedom for communities to create their own money streams (or to forsake the use of money altogether). These goals are better achieved when aligned, so this is why Lietaer's approach makes a lot of sense to me, and I see not contradiction, but possible integration of various efforts. Dear Josef,
It's particularl…tag:p2pfoundation.ning.com,2008-08-06:2003008:Comment:59412008-08-06T00:04:22.000ZMichael Lintonhttp://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profile/MichaelLinton
Dear Josef,<br />
<br />
It's particularly instructive that, regarding community way and the various pseudo-cc you cite - berks, totnes - that you "don't see how it is so different".<br />
<br />
I presume you could see a difference between a live horse pulling a cart, and a cart pulling a dead horse? And how the order and condition are important?<br />
<br />
In the paper-sub monies, the organizers are saying - "you can trust this money, it's not really community money, it's just paper underwritten by normal money, and so you…
Dear Josef,<br />
<br />
It's particularly instructive that, regarding community way and the various pseudo-cc you cite - berks, totnes - that you "don't see how it is so different".<br />
<br />
I presume you could see a difference between a live horse pulling a cart, and a cart pulling a dead horse? And how the order and condition are important?<br />
<br />
In the paper-sub monies, the organizers are saying - "you can trust this money, it's not really community money, it's just paper underwritten by normal money, and so you can cash it when you like".<br />
<br />
In community way, the businesses are saying - "we are issuing promises and you can consider them money."<br />
<br />
Notice any differences yet?<br />
<br />
If not, then perhaps you could try thinking this one through.<br />
<br />
<i>People in this town often mark bills with a distinctive stamp. The banks are not impressed and refuse to accept them. So they tend to stay in town, circulating as you might suppose, from hand to hand, from till to pocket, from sock to shop etc etc.<br />
<br />
Q1) Does this make any difference to the pattern of transactions we might call the "local economy"?<br />
<br />
(In case you're in doubt, the answer is "no, none whatsoever - no more than if we never used $10 bills, or only used $10 bills and loose change - the pattern of buying and selling is not at all altered. Or perhaps you think it is? If so, you might explain your views, but please don't try the "plugging leaks" nonsense)<br />
<br />
Q2) When is a berk any different?<br />
</i><br />
<br />
I have talked with some advocates of berks, etc who have accepted, sometimes readily, sometimes not, that they are essentially meaningless - except, they will say, as "an example, an encouragement, a way of getting people thinking."<br />
<br />
But to use something so transparently trivial as some sort of direction to something useful, and therefore necessarily different, seems close to 100% counter-productive, at least to me. It certainly takes plenty of time and money, and can hardly add anything but misconception and confusion in an area where clarity is critically important. And so clearly lacking.<br />
<br />
In short, while berks etc can look to some as though they are new money going round, actually it's just the same old stuff in "new and improved!" wrapping, and it's still just going through. Community way and other mutual credit are new money, and they go round.<br />
<br />
So what is judged "successful" depends on who is looking, and how well they can see.<br />
<br />
Ernie and I are indeed dismissive of useless distractions, particularly when it is asserted that they are actually doing something when they are most certainly not. Peter Medawar, in similar circumstances, wrote -<br />
<br />
* Yet the greater part of it, I shall show, is nonsense, tricked out with a variety of metaphysical conceits, and its author can be excused of dishonesty only on the grounds that before deceiving others he has taken great pains to deceive himself.<br />
o Review of Teilhard de Chardin’s The Phenomenon of Man, Mind, 70, pp 99 to 105.<br />
<br />
Capice?<br />
<br />
As for your other assertions - that we are "too quick to rubbish", "contradictory" and "not very open" - we're firmly of the belief that rubbish is better rubbished than revered, that what you see as contradiction is merely your own extensive confusion; and we have reviewed your view of "open" on several previous occasions and as far as I can see you haven't yet grasped the basics, so let's just leave your opinions (too quick perhaps?) to stand for the record.<br />
<br />
I hope, Josef, you will in time find how the respect you earn comes from the respect you learn. Maybe listen in when we have a session with Michel on <a href="http://blogtalkradio.com/openmoney">blogtalkradio</a> next week?